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Friday, May 9, 2008 at 15:09:21
RF4L....its called taking steroids......that's what's up with Chelios.
MelvilleFred
Q-Ville out as coach of the Avs.
endzone1
I would prefer to make big moves in the offseason. The dealine should be only for tweaks. I believe that Slats' arrogance hurts him in his attempts to make trades. I also believe that no one is out there looking to do favors for the Rangers. I would love to see Shanahan as an assistant coach next year, or in some other role with the team.
Bob
NYStranger - Sather was sitting on his cards, IMO. He could have easily dealt MALIK or PRUCHA, and there were rumors the Hawks were interested in the pair before trading RUUTU to the 'Canes. But I think was content with the team's play and figured his squad could weather the injury bug by keeping the guys they had(minus Hossa and Montoya). And I think it's a damn good philosophy if that's the case. Just looking at some of the draft picks RAYNGER named...this would have been a hell of a team had Neil "Living Satan" Smith not dealt away half of it for quick fix solutions. Imagine a Zubov-Norstrom front line(ironically the first pairing the Stars now have). What if Cloutier was the netminder behind those guys? But instead he and Sundstrom were traded for Brendl. Same with Marc Savard for Lundmark deal that year. When you start adding up the guys they drafted in the 1990s, it really doesn't look that bad. Had the guys drafted in the early 90s be raised like the guys drafted in the early 2000s, I think the post-cup years would have told a much different story. Instead, there was a GM who refused to let go of the 1994 legacy...now, I'm no big fan of Sather. In fact, I was quite chagrined by his first years here, when he moved hometown players like Malhotra, Johnsson and York for what amounted to nothing. And then years cow-towing to a Messier who left his career in Vancouver...but since MEss hung 'em up, Sather has done an alright job. I can't say there are many moves he's made that I've disagreed with during that time. Can anyone else?
tdchi
maybe a pointless subject - but I'm curious if Sather was not willing to make bigger moves at the deadline or was unable to because we did not have the chips or was unable because other GMs would not work with him or help the Rangers in anyway. another words were they holding us up for players other teams might of gotten for less? Knowing this would give us much insight into how this team has been and will be built this year. As much as I talk about true rebuilding I know it will not happen and I think Sather has to go into this season with the assumption he can not get a trade done at the deadline. So, he can not leave any big piece out in this off-season thinking he can get it later. I just hope Jagr makes up his mind soon so we know what direction this team must take. the worst possible think will be for him to pull a Selane and think about it (coming back) all the way, say, until training camp, or something.
NYStranger
NYStranger - Of course, Istill disagree...The East was as wide open as it could be, and that won't be the case every year.With stronger moves (and I have no problem giving up kids, picks or prospects in the right deal) going further would have been very possible..I think it ws a chance we should have taken but I can see why others do not....But, over and done with....Besides, we'll probably be having similar conversations 9-12 months from now.!.
Hospo
RAYNGER: I saw a clip from yesterday's game where Chelios took Steve Ott into the boards behind the Wing net well after the puck was off Ott's stick and proceeded to punch Ott in the chops, after driving him into the boards. Freak of nature is right-on. What's with this guy anyways?
RF4L
david: In the number 6 spot guys who look good and very well may be available include Cody Hodgson - 6' 190 offensive centerman who scored 34g and 68 points in 54 games for Brampton, Colin Wilson, a big offensive centerman in the US system, Boeker as you cite (a goal scoring winger), Kyle Beach, a power forward with size, skill and attitude (some of which has negative connotations and may hinder his drafting position), Filitov, a speedy more passionate version of Cherepanov (although he may go 2nd or 3rd), and Luke Schenn who sounds to me very much like Marc Staal. Of those, I like Filitov best, but I don't think he'll be there (if he is, it's because of the no NHL/Russia transfer agreement). If he's gone, I'd take Hodgson - highly skilled offensive centermen don't exactly grow on trees - I've seen this kid play and he reminds a little of Marc Savard.
RF4L
Hospo - agreed that the Rangers did not go for it at the deadline - but IMO that was the right move. Sather was not ready to move whatever chips it would have taken to get, say, that PP QB or big D-man we needed. I'm OK with it because I did not feel this team as it was at the deadline was only a piece or two away from a Cup. I think he said - well, we have a pretty good team, so let's see how far we can go without breaking the bank. At least thats the way I hope it went down and he is still sticking to the slower development of a young, homegrown, core of players to build around. Of course when a solid player becomes available through trade or FA and it makes sense with the overall picture, then I'm all for him to make those moves. I just hope the lack of moves at the deadline was not the result of him being asleep at the wheel or other GMs not willing to work with him or help the Rangers. A distinct possibility!
NYStranger
RF4L: i read a bunch of posts back that you said Columbus might be willing to trade the #6 pick. let's say we could swap picks with Columbus, who do you like? Seems like a lot of people on here like Boedker. KEN: curious to see who you would take at #6 if we were able to swing that trade.
davidsoc30
Speaking of the Wings...CHRIS CHELIOS is a friggin' freak of nature...the guy's 46 and still playing a role for the Wings...
RAYNGER
Yzerman emulated the Wings philsoph, especially in his latter playing days. He helped pass on to the existing players that philsophy, so in a roundabout way he has contributed to the current success. Also, he's in the Wing management team. The Rangers, however, sucked to no end during the latter days of both Leetch and Richter and then for a few years after that. Whatever they might have passed on about winning got sucked into the void that Sather's abhorrent GMing practices created.
RF4L
KEN: I don't understand some of the connections you make in your posts...if YZERMAN in 1983 has some bearing on the Wings success today, then shouldn't LEETCH and RICHTER's being drafted after YZERMAN have a bearing on Ranger success today?...of course, I think the answer is "no"...I don't think YZERMAN being picked in 1983 has anything to do with the Wings' success since he's been gone...and BTW, as bad as the Rangers might have been drafting, I'll put LEETCH, DAHLEN, KOVALEV and SUNDSTROM up there with the LAPOIBNTE's and RACINE's of DET's drafts...and don't forget several of those early Ranger picks were used to land GRAVES and MESSIER...who played a **small** role in making the Rangers contenders for years...
RAYNGER
I'll take Jagr with whatever baggage he has, so will Renney & Sather. Unless they know buttman isn't going to let them win next season, like he did this season.
stevielegs
tdchi.....The Wings drafted their all everything captain of all their cup teams high in the first round. They got Joe Murphy, Yves Racine, Mike Sillinger, Keith Primeau, Martin Lapointe and Jiri Fisher in the first round from '83-'98. In addition to solid first round drafting, they were a freak of nature in later rounds nabbing Boughner, Lidstrom, Federov, Drake, Osgood, Knuble, McCarty, Konstantinov and Graves prior to becoming a dynasty. I see your argument that in this case, the first round choices alone were not the key, although Stevie Y was key, but there is no doubt that one of the most successful franchises in professional sports got that way by drafting big time talent no matter what the round. I'm sure they got good value for a lot of those first round picks when traded. Like RAYNGER said, I wouldn't care either what round we got the elite guys in. But the odds are so much better if you draft high and well. You have a pretty damn impressive list of draft picks there to compare with and we don't match up. Look at our drafts during that time frame. Championship teams draft GREAT players, not good ones. Most great players are drafted very high and the greatest of the great are almost always drafted high.
Ken
Ken - I really don't see what you're getting at. Yeah, the wings were bad in the 80s. That was two decades ago. Looking back, good drafts in '89, '90 and '91 lead them to win their division in '92, '94, '95, '96, '99 and every year in the 21st century(outside of the lockout). They were conference champs in '95 and '97, '98 and '02; and of course, cups in '97, '98 and '02. During all that time, they relied on mid- to late-round draft picks(as they do today), save for Steve Yzerman, who was a top-5 pick in the early 80s. So I think your overestimating the bell curve of development. It didn't take Detroit 20 years to amass what they have now. It took them three good draft years and what has become hockey's best feeder system. Like I said before, Detroit has a nasty habit of finding a player's strengths and exploiting it to the best of their ability. Take MIKAEL SAMUELSSON. The guy was a third liner in NY, he was a throw-in for the Kovalev trade and was cast out of Florida. Nobody wanted him when he arrived in Motown. Now he's consistently scoring 40 points a season and had himself a 20 goal season his first year. Good teams are developed from good systems. I'd argue the Rangers have a good system in place. You've just got to be patient as it starts to produce fruits...
tdchi
RF4L - Or you trade some of those picks and prospects for the right players to mesh with the right FAs and the young players that are coming up throught the sytem----which I think is the ranger strategy..And I'm fine with it except the Rangers didn't try hard enough to win this past deadline..
Hospo
Ken: All is not lost you know. I realize that the Wings have yet to win a Cup without a high pick playing a significant role, but they have iced a very competitive team for several consecutive years, meaning building a top organization that results in a lack of high draft picks doesn't automatically equate to lousy teams. There's also a 2nd way to go about building a successful team without top picks: You accummulate extra picks, draft and develop well to the point where you have too many young players vying for positions. The Rangers, with Dawes, PP and Callahan have 1 too many small offenisve wingers IMO, and one has to go. Perhaps packaging one of them along with their 20th draft selection will fetch them Columbus's 6th overall spot, for example. I also believe they have some room to consider moving one of Tyutin and Girardi and if Sanguinette, Potter and Baranka are the real deal, there's trade depth there, too.
RF4L
RAYNGER: Yes, that's why I've commended Renney on here many times about how he went out of his way to mesh with JJ (and IMO it's Renney who did the bulk of the bending, not JJ). Let;s give Sather some benefit here, too. He obviously was acutely aware of JJ's reputation and how to go about soothing his ego. It seems obvious to me that this is part of the reason he gave Renney the job. He also built JJ's posse, knowing full well that's what would make JJ happy.
RF4L
RAYNGER - Yep, that's what I was indirectly pointing to in my posts on Jagr and Cassidy....And, yes, Renney has his faults (strategy, PP, etc..), but he did a tremendous job with Jagr (and almost all of his players individually, IMO)...
Hospo
RAYNGER: Agreed (again - but I did notice you agree with my words "to an extent" - LOL), specifically on the different mindset. I think the biggest change has been the patience of the organization with its youth. Staal is a perfect example. Prior to 04, chances are he'd have turned pro at 19. Instead, this regime sent him back to Sudbury, to the displeasure of some on here, if I recall correctly (and to the displeasure of Staal himself). Of course, this is all conjecture, but IMO, what we just saw out of Marc in his rookie professional year means I wouldn't change a single thing about how he's been handled. I've argued on here numerous times about the stupidity of having teenagers turn pro - all but a precious few are better served to spend their final year (or 2) back in junior, learning what it feels like to dominate and more importantly, what it feels like to be relied upon by a team from a leadership standpoint. I've always felt this: Except in rare situations it never hurts to send a player back - at worse, he won't learn anything more and even that is highly doubtful. The Rangers finally seem to have embraced this reality and it shows in their handling of almost every youth player they've had in their system since 04.
RF4L
RAYNGER......There is always hope for the Rangers. How much hope though? Any team can get lucky. I agree with RF in that the more high selections you make and the higher your selections are, the luckier you most likely will be. Just odds. Otherwise, anyone could be a poker champ. You can increase your luck and odds with guys who know how to evaluate talent, who to draft, when to trade up and which prospects to part with. Don Maloney sucked. What if we traded Jessiman and Montoya years ago? What if we didn't move up in the draft to select Brendl and Lundmark? What if we moved up for Phaneuf? What if we put ourselves in position 4-5 years ago to draft top 2-3 for a couple of years. Where would we be now? I agree 100% with you that Sather has made big improvements and he has committed to drafting and development. My point all along is it's not enough to build a championship team in the mold of those most respected in the league. Elite, high end talent is the one thing they have not gotten and they don't seem to have a plan or the means to get it. I don't think they get over the hump without it. They are right in the thick of the mess with the Flyers, Devils, Canes, Bruins. The only way I see to get past that with the staus quo approach is if Cherry and Sanguinetti turn out to be worthy of top 5 picks.
Ken
RF4L - Yep, that's a part of what i'm saying..The other part is that fans who hang these reputations on players aren't always aware of this stuff and/or have preconceived views of a player which helps them draw the conclusions they want..eh, all moot....The important point is whether or not the Rangers bring Jagr pack becasue that should influence their entire off-season strategy..
Hospo
RF4L: Again, it takes two to tango...JAGR might have matured but I think what probably happened is renney dealt with him differently that hisd WASH coach did, building a strong working relationship...which comes back to a coach's real job, which is IMHO getting the most out of your players...being an SOB is a prescription for failure if your players don't respond...
RAYNGER
Hospo: That's a valid point. Of course, it's never that simple, which is what I think you;re really saying, right? There's all kinds of different dynamics going on that can impact what a player does, how he behaves in certain situations, etc. The coach, the teammates, the GM, the style of play, the age/health/experience of the player, not to mention his mental makeup, etc.
RF4L
RF4L: As long as impact players are found, I don't care what round they are selected in...I would take DET's lineup filled with low round picks over almost any other team's lineup...but I do agree with you to an extent...prior to the lockout purge I think the Rangers were operating under a faulty plan...one that included trading away two first round draft picks...since the lockout, I think there's been a different mindset in place, and I think we're seeing the fruits of that labor...if CHERRY and ANGUINETTI prove to be busts, that would be dissapointing...but if LUKASZELISKA and DANNY HOBBS become NHL All Stars, then it won't bother me a bit...
RAYNGER
Regarding LIndros and his reputation. Most of that garbage was spewed by Booby Clarke. I think Booby started it as a way of trying to both motivate and mature Lindros. Obviously, it was a silly way to go about matters, but that's Booby - he's a blowhard with a defensive I'm-always-right attitude. Over time, as Lindros failed to respond to Booby's tactics and didn't become the leader Booby envisioned (I suspect Booby was looking for Lindros to become Booby Clark II), he became frustrated to the point of bitterness. Being Booby, he continued to go public with his words, which only made the situation worse. My belief is that Lindros simply didn't have the strength of character to be the leader everyone, especially Booby, envisioned. He was big, strong, talented and mobile - nobody before him or after can compare to what he brought to the game when healthy IMO. However, he wasn't a rah-rah guy. He wasn't one of those guys who strode into a dressing room and by sheer presence alone demanded respect (like Messier did, for example) and then followed up on that respect by delivering on the ice when it counted. Once the injuries started, that was it - his career as a dominant player was over. It's actually a little sad, IMO, because I think Lindros is basically a good guy - just not a leader.
RF4L
RF4L - The other points are that what "is deserved" is often in the eye of the beholder and that there are usually alot of factors involved (often not considered) in the situations that people use to determine a players "reputation"
Hospo
RAYNGER: The point is that sometimes those reputations are well-deserved. In other words, they are accurate and born out of behaviour by the player himself. That doesn't mean that player cannot change and in most cases, that change is a matter of maturity more than anything else. I think JJ's matured. Avery, on the other hand, I'm not so sure of.
RF4L
From 91 - 97 the Wings drafted the following in the first round: LAPOINTE, C. BROWN, A. ERIKSSON, YAN GOLUBOVSKY, M. KUZNETSEV, J. WALLIN and Y. BUTSAYEV....if 7 crap 1st rounds didn't doom the Wings, maybe there's hope for these Rangers just yet...
RAYNGER
Hospo: Re JJ's lack of pouting in NY: Agreed and that's why I added the Renney kudos to my post (and talked about JJ perhaps finally maturing).
RF4L
RF4L.....it's a shame, it really is. A totally blown opportunity to take the next step. They could have done '04 all over again and maybe done better this time around.
Ken
RAYNGER: Just so we're even-steven, regarding your post about Sather's drafting recently, I agree. He's done a good job at restocking the organization. Where the jury's out on him is his first round record. In 8 drafts, he has but one solid pick to his credit - Marc Staal. I sure hope both Cherepanov and Sanguinetti are the realdeal, but until they prove it, that record is mediocre, at best. What I've really liked about him is that (until last draft) he always found ways to acquire extra picks - my belief is that the law of averages will eventually kick in, meaning the more picks you have, the better the chances are of having some of them become NHLers.
RF4L
HOSPO/RF4L: Players get saddles with reputations but it takes two to tango...LA couldn't wait to get rid of AVERY, yet he becomes a key player in NY...JAGR has problem with the coach in WASH and his play trails off, he comes to NY and becomes the most dominant player in the NHL that first season...LINDROS was a supposed problem child in PHI but was a model citizen in NY...changes of scenerey do help every once in awhile...
RAYNGER
Vic - I agree with you that the Rangers should be looking to move away from Jagr and Shanny but it doesn't mean we have to make a panic move and get a Hossa. To me Hossa is that girl you ask out after your first 3 choices declined your offer, he's nice but not that nice. He would be a perfect fit if all the pieces were in place and we just needed that one guy to put us over the top but I don't feel that we are there yet, too many holes still need to be filled. Do you sign Jagr for another go? Yeah, as most have been saying, sign him for a year say around 5 to 6 mil with an option for a 2nd year if he meets some incentives. A guy like Jagr is proud enough to bust his ass to make those incentives and in the meantime your giving our farm system another year or two to mature and then we can look for that "it" 1st choice girl for the dance.
Greschner4
tdchi....Here's what I think the problem is with the Wings argument. I think you are taking the Wings of 2008 in a nutshell and ignoring their past. They were horrible until they went on one of the most successful streaks of drafting in history. You can't ignore the knowledge and experience gained from that, the homegrown winning culture. It continues to this day on autopilot due to terrific team management. But, skip those draft years way back in the late 80' and 90's and we're not having this conversation. If the NYR were to use the Wings as a model, they would have to go back to the beginning and get those kind of players. Otherwise, they are cheating the process and will end up a cheap imitation. I think they are a cheap imitation of the Devils right now for that very same reason. We have examples all over the new york sports scene. Yankees, Mets, Knicks (close with Ewing), Islanders, Devils. They only won championships when they drafted hall of fame players. The Rangers only did it when the great Craig Patrick gave them Leetch and Richter, then Rockstrom unlocked the key to the Russian talent pool with Zubov, Kovalev and Nemchinov. It still took a lot to get that group over the top....that's how hard it is. You can cheat the process and try the easy way but it's a crapshoot at best and an uphill battle playing catch up all the time.
Ken
RF4L - That's only part of the story--and of course the part that supports your view of Jagr-- the rest is that Cassidly had been saddling Jagr with 4th liners and AHLer, criticizing him in the press, and trying to make an example out of him (show who's boss)...Yes, jagr acted unprofessioanly but Cassidy destroyed his own team.....The Only move the cpas could make was to get rid of the worthless Cassidy..while RAYNGER has the reason why they got rid of JAgr....but none of this means Jagr wasn't tempermantal and prone to a little pouting--he was....But I saw almost NONE of that in NY..
Hospo
RAYNGER: I will agree that the Pens were looking to unload his salary, but they were also looking to rid themselves of a pouting superstar. You're saying his attitude had nothing to do with the trade. I totally disagree. And besides you're clearly a JJ lover so I think you're viewpoint is someone biased! ;-)
RF4L
RAY: Exactly! When you look at what the Rangers have currently on the Roster and in the system it is hard not to be optimistic. This isn't the team they were in 1997 where they had virtually no young talent on the roster and none on the way. This is a team that is already in the top 8 in the league and some of its best and brightest young players haven't even begun to contribute. Thats why I don't get some of the doomsday posts around here. This team isn't that far off. At this point it is just a matter of continuing to develop the young players coming up and filling in the biggest holes with the right free agents and/or trades. There is no guarantee that the Rangers will ever have a chance to bring in a better player then HOSSA next year or the year after. To me, next year needs to be about transitioning the team away from JJ and SHANNY to GOMEZ, DRURY and the young guns. It also needs to be about putting the bulk of the pieces in place to ensure that the Rangers can move into the top 4 teams the following year and in subsequent years. There are no guarantees. There are no 100% fool proof formulas. All they can do is put themselves in a position where they are one of the top 4 teams.
Vic
Hospo: Re your 2nd point. Again I have no argument there. However, a comment: It's a reflection, I think, of a meddling owner. The GM and coach had one team building philsophy (due to a lack of talent overall, adopt a defensive style of play), but had to deal with a meddling owner who interferred and demanded the team acquire one of the top players in the game. I'd be willing to bet my house that McPhee, if left alone, would never have pursued JJ. I also think that part of the reason McPhee kept his job for all these years after JJ was traded was because the owner felt guilty for interferring. The JJ experiment in Washington was an unmitigated disaster, a disaster prepretrated by the owner.
RF4L
stevielegs - great find on that article, man i remember cursing and throwing things at my tv when Jagr him undressed Beuke with 5 mins to go in game 5. At the time, i remember saying to my buddies that I would take a Graves suspension if it meant Mario was out not knowing that Jagr was gonna be the man the rest of the way in that series. Great memories
Greschner4
RF4L: Pouting had nothing to do with the Pens trading JAGR...they moved him because they were just coming out of bankruptcy and they were not about to pay the guy big bucks...they stripped the team to an AHL roster while MARIO sat waiting for either a new arena deal or a buyer...in WASH JAGR had problems with Cassidy...I don't know who was right or wrong but Leonsis wanted to cut his losses and had JAGR traded and Cassidy didn't last long there either...
RAYNGER
Hospo: Yeah, obviously the Caps were in a huge mess - JJ was brought over to help them, but did the opposite. Interestingly enough, that was a trade made by the owner, not by the GM. Also, a few weeks back I posted on here about some JJ stories the TSN hockey panel recited during the intermission of one of the Ranger games. I've forgetton the one they recited about Pittsburgh but I do recall the one about something that occurred in Washington. The play had stopped and Cassidy told JJ to go out for the PP, but JJ refused! LOL! Apparently, Cassidy kept asking and JJ kept refusing to the point where the ref skated over to the bench and asked the coach whether or not JJ was coming out. LOL! It's funny now, but talk about driving a wedge in the team chemistry and all the while, merrily collecting his $11,000,000. Incredible. The me-first crap he pulled first in Pittsburgh and then in Washington is real - not made up stuff and IMO gives all the more reason to commend Renney. He found a way to work with JJ and avoided a repeat of that disasterous behaviour. In fact, he actually was able to get JJ to don the captaincy. I think, too, some credit has to go to JJ - I think he matured (rather late, but better late than never) in New York and came to realize the significance of team play and more importantly, just how huge an influence his behaviour/moods/etc has on his teammates, especially the younger ones. Having the likes of Shanahan and Drury helps, too, of course.
RF4L
Here's why I think the Rangers have finally gotten things right...through the draft they have acquired (1) one of the top goalies in the game; (2) a stud #2 Dman in STAAL; (3) a power forward top line center in DUBI; (4) a potential gamebreaking sniper in CHERRY; (5) a top offensive Dman prospect in SANGUINETTI...(6) they've also drafted 3 players who could be top 6 forwards in DAWES, PP and DIRTY HARRY and a 2nd pair defender in TYUTIN...and you can throw GIRARDI in the mix as an undrafted UFA who is also a 2nd pair defender...I don't think there's many orgs that can boast that kind of a return from the draft...and, yes, some of the above aren't finished products yet but if people are talking rebuild, then doesn't patience have to come into that equation???...or are we looking for the "overnight rebuild"...it's possible that CHERRY never makes it over or that he doesn't live up to expectations but the Rangers got one of the top offensive talents in the draft without having to move up to pick CHERRY...they similarly got a great value pick with SANGUINETTI, has done nothing but raise his stock since that draft....and all of that doesn't even take into account any of the other draft picks, some of which will also push for roster spots like ANISIMOV ...if people want Sather gone because they don't like him or can't get past the crap job he did when he first got to NY, so be it....but the guy has been atop an org that has been doing fine as of late...maybe the law of averages is ginally evening out in Ranger fans' favor...
RAYNGER
RF4L- In other words, you don't pay for perhaps the best player in the game at the time and then try to make him play the game of AHL never-will-bes who the coach favored....And that's what Cassidy was doing..
Hospo
RF4L - I watched alot of Jagr's Cap games, and he did have an attitude, but Bruce Cassidy was perhpas the most incompetent and in-over-his-head coach the NHL has ever seen...He had no clue whatsoever how to relate to any of the palyers that were't his boys from the AHL..And they were scrubs..
Hospo
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004325
stevielegs
RF73 all the cryers have to do is put crybaby & slewfoot in the hospital for a couple of weeks.
stevielegs
In Washington, JJ was moved not because he cost to much in salary, but because his attitude was rotting the team from inside out. How bad was it? So bad that the Capitals agreed to continue to pay over 1/2 of JJ's monsterous salary (which at the time was a ridiculous $11,000,000/year).
RF4L
And the Pens let JJ go because he was pouting. He was pouting because the team was sucking and looking for him for leadership, something he wasn't prepared to do. They needed his leadership because Mario had retired and the team, because their fans suck and stop coming to the rink because the team wasn't winning 80% of their games, started trading off vets. When things got so bad, JJ was moved (for a lousy and cheap $$ return). In other words, it wasn't some astute GM move sensing a market place that was ripe for moving a star for a quality return.
RF4L
Ken - the Pens won 2 cups with Jagr, then decided to tank it for a couple of years and so that they could rebuild and in the process almost jepordize the existence of that team in pittsburgh. So let's not make them geniuses because they let Jagr go. As for Washington, management had no idea what they needed to do to get the most out of Jagr and were smart to unload him before the lockout so that they could rebuild, so in this case your almost right. Kudos to the Rangers and the coaching staff for understanding what was needed to get the most out Jagr the last 3 seasons, yes he's had some bumps in his tenure here but for the most part it's been sucessful. As Ola has stated, this team has and is building a winning atmosphere and in a big way was all due to a good trade by Glen Sather to get JJ for Anson Carter (oh man that hurt to say that, LOL)
Greschner4
tdchi: Who says either of Heatley and Gaborik will be on the market? There's rumours already circulating that Minnesota is starting to inquire with Gaborik's agent about a new contract. History is showing that all but a precious few bluechip stars are resigning, prior to hitting the open market, thereby driving up the salary cost of those who do become UFAs. The answer, IMO, is to either secure a lofty draft spot in the 1st round or to trade for a star (or better yet, an emerging star). As so many of the posts in the past few days attest to, the only way the former happens is via the trade route and obviously, that isn't a guarantee either (unless you land the number 1 pick overall, which no one trades anymore). This is one of the reasons I keep posting on here about the Rangers possibly pursuing the BJs for Zherdev. I also have read that Columbus is willing to move their 6th overall pick. Sather should be investigating both possibilities, IMO.
RF4L
Vic - I understand your logic and somewhat agree with it. But allow me to offer this: First, I'm of the belief that JJ wants to stay in NY and would probably take a pay cut to do so. I could see him signing for $6 million with an incentive-laden contract. I could ALSO see Jagr pulling a Niedermeyer, in that he sits for the first half, gets his act together in the Czech Republic and then comes back for the second half...Also, I think a lot of people here ignore the gigantic leap Dubinsky, Dawes and Callahan made from the beginning of the season to the POs. Think of it this way: Imagine these guys pick up where they left off. And that goes for the whole team. Something I just realized about the Rangers, there are only FIVE guys over 30 on this squad, and that includes STRUDWICK. If they resign the same squad(which they certainly won't), they'll have six starting next year. I'd like to see what holes can be filled within the system, and then search for a JJ replacement next season when there's Heatly and Gaborik on the market.
tdchi
Ken: I was one on here pulling for Sather to move all the pending UFAs last year. I softened my stance when the team finally started winning again. However, in retrospect how exciting would the upcoming draft be if the Rangers had an additional first rounder, plus multiple 2nd and 3rd picks (not to mention a valuable prospect or 2).
RF4L
Vic: The rule is, I think, you cannot go into the blue paint unless the puck is there. Prevoiusly the rule was you could never go into the bluepaint. The player was clearly in and Turco was trying to look around him and the puck was not there (being passed around in the high slot area, I believe).
RF4L
Good mornin' boys.....Gene. Yes, Devellano. Exactly the kind of guy you buy with Garden $. Not Hossa. He wouldn't do us much good and take up ice time and cap space, limiting our future ability to wheel and deal. BTW, until the Wings win a cup without all their first round drafted hall of famers, they are eveidence for my side of the argument.(: The Wings are keeping it going real well as the Devils did for awhile. Lidstrom and their goalies are now on borrowed time though. And no, I am not a democrat. In fact, I consider myself an independent. I have voted both ways over the years and my record sucks. Finally, some food for further thought.....Pens trade JJ in his prime and go on to become the best young team in the league. Caps grab him, then realizing their mistake, pass him to the NYR who feel he is somehow an integral part of a publicly stated rebuilding program. The Caps go on to become arguably the second best young team in the league. The NYR surround JJ with his type of vets, the NYR rebuild flops, but JJ sets the team all-time regular season record for goal scoring. The NYR are swept out of the PO's. They go on to win but three 2nd round PO games in three years with JJ. He leaves and the NYR get 0 in return. The NYR now feel Hossa can replace JJ.....You fill in the rest. Most NYR fans are not upset about the rebuild being abandoned but were excited by the team's PO chances and look forward to next year. With one or two tweaks, things will be different. Where did I leave my gun?
Ken
RF4L: I haven't seen the highlights yet but I do know that the rules were changed shortly after the disputed HULL goal in the finals when the Stars won the Cup. Players can be inside the paint now. They cannot physically interfere with the goalie though. Was he touching the goalie or preventing the goalie from moving?
Vic
BTW, watched the hilites of that game this AM and one of the Wing goals was scored with a Wing (either Zetterberg or Holmstrom) clearly in the bluepaint on his own accord, interferring with Turco. The goal should not have been allowed, in other words. I just laughed at that and it reaffirmed my 10 minutes of watching the game itself. It's simply too frustrating for me to watch that bushleague officiating..
RF4L
SCHNEIDW: No offense taken at all. Disagreeing and expressing different opinions is what The Wall is all about! As for replacing JJ with HOSSA my thinking was this: First, JJ isn't going to come at a discount. He counted $5 Mil against the cap last year but really made $7.8 Mil. He might take a small pay cut but I don't think he would be willing to take less then between $6 Mil to $7 Mil. I don't have any inside info to prove that opinion I just have to believe that he sees himself as valuable to the organization (or more valuable) then GOMEZ and DRURY. My point is that I'd rather overpay someone who is 7 years younger then overpay JJ. It would cost a few $Mil more per year to land HOSSA but at least he will still be able to play at a high level two or three years down the road when the Rangers may be most ready to challenge for a Cup. I don't see the Rangers as having a very strong chance to win it all next year so I'd rather use that time to put more pieces in place that could help them win it all in two or three years. JJ certainly won't be a part of the equation 2 or 3 years down the road. So, it isn't that I'm trying to fix something that isn't broken, I just think it might make sense to make this change now to put a player in place for the future. As for DAWES, is it a stretch to put him on the first line? You bet. However, if the Rangers are going to go out and spend money on a guy like HOSSA this year then I think you are going to have to plug young players into some spots on the roster that may be a stretch for them and hope they can play at a high enough level to do a decent job in whatever role that may be. DAWES has shown that he is a good playmaker and has an excellent shot. He has also shown good chemistry with GOMEZ. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to believe that he can be a productive player on a line with GOMEZ and HOSSA. As for your other comment that I didn't address the problem of not getting bigger up front you are absolutely right. I don't think we can get everything on our shopping list this year because we just don't have the money to spend and there aren't that many guys available that can fill those holes. I think we are going to have to pick and choose what problems to address in the offseason and hope that some kids will be able to step up and address other holes. Is it possible that JESSIMAN can make the team on the 4th line and can play that role in front of the net on the PP? I don't know.....only time will tell.....
Vic
Iron: Even with a healthy Tiimmon I don;t believe the Flyers could get by Pittsburgh, let alone beat the Wings (or Stars), so I don't think you'll have to worry about that. And I cannot see the Penguins beating the Wings, either. The Stars would be a less difficult opponent, but I watched maybe 10 minutes of the Wing/Star game and Detriot was all over them.
RF4L
RAYNGER -- ThePits Post-Gazette started a poll after that news: With Flyers defenseman Kimmo Timonen expected to miss the Eastern Conference final, how much does the edge tilt toward the Penguins? http://www.post-gazette.com/polls/default.asp?pollID=2510 Interesting voting considering the choices.
RF73
MIKE: PHI's mountain just got tougher to climb...TIMMONEN is out for the forseeable future with a blood clot in his ankle..
RAYNGER
HOSSA would be the next in a long line of overpaid, underachieving Rangers. The only way I'd take him is if he announced NY was the only team he'd play for and he'd do it for less than $6 million per. Otherwise, he can join his brother in the sun belt.
tdchi
RF4L: I hear you, brotha. I can't bring myself to root for either team. I can't stand the thought of Crosby winning the cup this year, but if the Flyers win I'll never hear the end of it from all of my Philadelphia friends. Never thought I'd root for the West to take it, but I suddenly find myself rooting for Modano and the Stars!
IronMike
VIC- Take no offense but I think you are trying to fix what is not broken... Surely Hossa will be an upgrade over Jarg because he plays solid defense and gives more than 50% effort during the regular season BUT at what cost? The salary cap will take a major hit!!! Need to spread the wealth... Plus, Dawes on the 1st line is beyond a reach and you are still hindered by not having a genuine power forward to screen the goalie and create chances behind the net... I think the smart money is to target Jagr at a reasonable salary and use extra $$$ to fill gaps in the lineup more judiciacly.... we'll see~!
schneidw
IMO, the Detriot Red Wings are the epitamy of a perfect organization (or as close to one as you're gonna get). It starts at the top with an owner who's willing to spend money, but keep his fingers out of the day to day stuff. As gene just said, from there, it's ensuring the top hockey guy knows what the hell he's doing, which clearly Devallano does. Then it works its way down. This is true of any successful business - it seems so simple, yet so difficult to achieve. By the time this philosphy reaches the players, what you have is a philsophy whereby everyone plays hard every shift. It's a rare thing indeed to see the Red Wings have a bad game. And hard work begets success which is infectious - everyone plays better when everyone's working hard - players develop better and more often. Therein, IMO, lies the key. All those late round picks look like steals (and makes one wonder why the hell all the other organizations keep missing out) but these guys are a product of a successful organization as much as they are pure hockey talents on their own. In otherwords, IMO, most of these guys would not be nearly so impressive if they'd been drafted by any team other than the Red Wings.
RF4L
The constant with the Red Wings id Jimmy Develano. The Isles have been very bad since he left and the Wings very good.
gene_carr
Can Korpi be worse than Hollweg? I say it's time to dump and work more kids into the lineup and study up for the draft. Either that or fire everyone and hire the Redwing organization who seems to get it.
RangerJoe
Hospo - Only Kronwall. And he was a 29th overall. Lidstrom, Franz, Filpulla were third round, Zetts was seventh round (?!?!), Datsayuk was sixth round, Holmstrom a tenth rounder(?!?!). Hudler(who I wanted the Rangers to trade for a few seasons back) was second round. And Samuelsson? I think you remember where he came from...That's just a bad-ass team with a dominant set of forwards all in their late 20s. Like I said, If I were in Vegas right now, I put it all on Lord Stanley paying a visit to Motown this season.
tdchi
The unimpressive Korpikoski needs another year in Hartford..OTOH, he's probably as good or better then the riveting Sjostrom......on the topic of Scandanavians, how bout Detroit and Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Frnazen, Lidstrom, Kronwall, Samulleson anf Fillupa kicking ass tonight? were any of them top draft choices?
Hospo
KEN.......if I had to guess I would say that you sound like a DEMOCRAT....
Vic
Ken - IMO there are two axioms for developing a good team. First, creating a system, in that you have a minor league squad that's running the same playing-style as the big league team. And second, drafting and acquiring the guys that will best fit into that system...The reason I bring this up is that I'm watching the Red Wings beat the piss out of a VERY tough Dallas Stars team. This is the same Wings team that has converted only four first-rounders into full-time players since 1991. And out of those four, only one (Martin Lapointe)could be considered a 'star' at any point in his career. But look at Detroit. Simply put, the team is AWESOME. They're as close to a dynasty as the NHL has had in modern times. Three cups and on their way to a fourth in one decade. How have they done it? Well, first of all, they had an AWESOME feeder system during the early 90s. I watched it with the Adirondack Red Wings. Many of those guys went on to fill important roles with the team. Maybe not the star-goal scorer roles, but important ones none the less. Some are still playing with the team. When they foresaw a gap in their lineup, they filled it. Never was there one element that could be shut down and the team would fall with it. Think about it. This is a team that waved goodbye to Segei Fedorov five years ago while he was arguably in his prime and got nothing for him. This is a team that let Shanny walk during the same season they lost Yzerman; the club that let Hasek venture off for nothing. Yet somehow, without a good top-seed draft record and without trading their stars for top prospects, they manage to pull a club together that manhandled a decent Avs team and is in the process of doing the same to the Stars. That's how you run a hockey team.
tdchi
You know, the more that I have thought about this the more I am warming up to the thought of the Rangers pursuing HOSSA. We know that JJ still has something left in the tank right now and when he puts his mind to it he can be a dominant player like he was in the playoffs this year. The problem is that we know that he won't do that in the regular season and there is really no telling if he can do what he did in this years playoffs next year when he is another year older. If the Rangers did invest in HOSSA then the would have less to spend elsewhere so they will need some kids to step up and fill out the roster. They also really need to get CHERRY over here for next season because I think they are going to lose him if they don't. He is still junior eligible so they need to keep him with the big team which shouldn't be that big a deal if his talent level is where people believe that it is. Just thinking of what the lines could look like with HOSSA in the mix..... DAWES-GOMEZ-HOSSA, AVERY-DRURY-CHERRY, KORPI-DUBI-CALLY for the first three lines. If you go out and get HOSSA then you pretty much have to rely on the kids to fill in spots and then step up and develop. That lineup doesn't scare me if I am the PENS but it is younger, faster and stronger and more balanced then this years lineup. It isn't a cup winner but it puts another two pieces of the puzzle (HOSSA and CHERRY) on the team that will need to be in place for them to contend in subsequent years. If KORPI, DUBI, CALLY and DAWES all continue to develop and get better then that lineup begins to look a little stronger. Only time will tell. The question is......Do you go out and get the only first line sniper that is on the market this year and bring him into the fold for the next 5 years? If you do that then you are saying that you think you can win with HOSSA, GOMEZ and DRURY forming the vet leadership up front with DUBI, DAWES and AVERY shouldering much of the secondary scoring load. Thoughts???
Vic
tdchi....sadly I think you are right. davidsoc30.....MY PLAN....deep breath...lol. Well, I would have enacted a plan in February that would have netted several 2nd-5th round draft choices to package but that can't happen now and without those picks in the bag it's tougher. I like your idea of making an offer to Anaheim. I would say Lundqvist, Staal, and Dubinsky are untouchable and anybody else can go if it can bring the promise (not guarantee) of elite talent. It's all a gamble but you can play the odds and come out ahead. No risk, no reward. It's kind of like investing. Want to be "comfortable".....take the bonds and treasury notes and guananteed 4-5% interest. You won't ever get rich doing that though will you? But....to succeed in the stock market takes skill and experience along with will and patience. The very first thing I would do is say this is unacceptable and recommitt to the draft. I would throw Garden $ not at FA's but at the best draft gurus in the world. Then, I would get them the high picks and the quantity of picks to work their magic by trading down and up. I would be sure to trade up when there was something special on the board. I would deeply evaluate each prospect and learn to trade the prospects most unlikely to succeed BEFORE it is obvious to the world and they no longer have value. I would include vets on the team for leadership and development, NOT for core roles requiring loads of ice time. I would never alter my long term vision to keep a vet happy. I would keep Gomez and Avery and name Drury captain with the intent to trade him at the deadline for more picks and pass the captaincy to Dubi or Staal. Next year I trade Gomez. In 4-5 years, I'm there and I still have PO chances (1-2 rounds). I now have MY guys. The guys I selected through my experts from a high position. I don't accumulate drafted players from 2-3 years ago from other teams as they are let go for a reason. The odds are far better that I will pick the right guys than other teams will let them go. My leadership is homegrown and hungry and most importantly TALENTED. Not mid first round talent but blue chip talent. I have the goalie and all the foot soldiers I need. Now, I send Renney back to development and bring in the greatest coach in the game paying him whatever he wants, sit back and enjoy the show. Obviously this would require a group of experts to get it done right and they are out there and there is no cap on them. This is where the Garden could still use its financial advantage with great effectiveness. Why is this too much to ask of our team?
Ken
YORK: I've only seen KORPI in preseason, a few Pack games and Sunday. Up until Sunday I had yet to see him take a shift that impressed me. On Sunday he played well in his limited ice time and I'm not just referring to the goal he scored. I don't know what he is capable of but I'm hoping he has a strong offseason and comes ready to win a job in camp.
Vic
Oooops....sorry guys. I think I started to twitch I got so worked up. I took my valium and a nap. The nurse says I'm OK now. One good thing came of that.....it broke the ice building up in here. Very funny comments.
Ken
Dunno about any Korp lovefest going on, but yes, I am hoping he is capable of taking a 4th line spot next season. IMO, it's a good way to start his NHL career because he's not shown enough offensively to warrant being on the 3rd line. Yet. Admittedly, I've not seen him play for the Pack, but I did see him in the preseason and came away encouraged by his speed and hockey savvy. Against Pittsburgh he looked to me much like he did in preseason, albeit as a centerman rather than as a winger, which gave him more opportunity with the puck. His goal was a lucky one more than anything else, so certainly I'm not anticipating anything more than 4th line production out of him. If he's not good enough for that, then back to Hartford he goes....
RF4L
YORK: I agree.. I've always like KORPIKOSKI because of his speed and energy. I've seen him live about four times now, and he always seems like one of the guys standing out(in a good way). That said, I'm not convinced he'll be in the lineup opening day. But you can see what one BIG goal has done for his reputation in NY.
tdchi
KEN - Mark my words: YOU WILL NEVER SEE A FULL REBUILD IN NYC. It will never happen. The team will ALWAYS 'go for it' so to speak. It's the market, and the market doesn't bear five years of cellar dwelling. Maybe on Long Island, maybe in Newark, but certainly not Madison Square Garden. I can offer you one example after the next where the Rangers chucked perfectly serviceable youngsters out for aging stars in jaw dropping deals to advance the team even if it was for a few games. I doubt I'll ever see the Rangers draft first overall, unless they swing a blockbuster trade...And WTF are you talking about the Pens and Caps for?!? You're already handing them dynasties when neither team has done jack as far as I'm concerned. Sure, the Pens are good and will get better. But I don't see ANYTHING about that franchise that suggests the type of dominance you're suggesting. Two players don't make a team, even if their names are MALKIN and CROSBY. And speaking of bad drafting, I don't see anyone in the Pens' system that would suggest they have a feeder system anywhere as developed as the Rangers. Sure, you can argue guys like Letang and Kennedy are with the team now. But in a few years, when they're trying to resign STAAL after inking a 10-year deal with Crosby and Malkin, I think you'll see a repeat of the meltdown that occurred in Tampa after their cup, in other words, ONE AND DONE. Washington has more of a farm system, but again, I don't see a lasting dynasty there...NY has a great stable of kids and has shown some pretty solid top round drafting in the last three years. Provided they can continue to move kids through Hartford, they'll have a very solid core during next year's playoffs, while Pittsburgh searches at the deadline to find another rental to capitalize on Crosby's passes.
tdchi
YORK18: Are you trying to tell me that 7:14 of icetime isn't enough to go by???? ;)...in fairness though, I think most people are talking about KORPI potentially slotting in for the 4th line...(everyone except OLA, that is ;)
RAYNGER
I don't understand the Korpi love fest going on. Have any of you watched him play on a regular basis and are not just judging him on one game? Man if you are thinking about filling slots on teams due to one game performances let's just bring up the whole pack team and hope for a cup win.
York18
RF: Ahmen to that. I really don't like Pittsburgh right now - never really did - I feel cheated somehow that Crosby's there instead of New York and I hate the fact they tanked for all those years and acquired the likes of Malkin, Fleury, etc, they just ran over the Rangers and even if they cannot keep all their talent, they're gonna be competitive for years to come. That's annoying as hell.
RF4L
RF4L -- Living in the Filthadelphia area has been traumatic for me...During all the years we didn't make the playoffs my pleasure came from when the cryers were eliminated...The perfect scenario has the PigPens winning the East by virtue of all the frustration penalties the cryers take and then the PigPens are soundly destroyed by the West winner...One can only hope that's the way it goes down.
RF73
How sad is it that I don't want either team to win the East. I loathe both and that's bad because I really, really don't like the Flyers. The sordid history of the Rangers cowering under their goonery is for me, a far more shameful memory for me than anything Pittsburgh has ever done.
RF4L
MikeL- what are you going to do when the league commissioner masterbaates to Crosby's picture while wearing his Pittsburg jersey.
NYStranger
And why I hope Downie or richards or Hatcher or whoever totally lays out and destroys either Crosby or Malkin..
Hospo
Mike: Dammit, I'm trying to forget that. It just bugs my ass to no end, made all that much more infuriating because the damn Penguins got him. They had the amazing experience of Lemieux for crying out loud. IT SUCKS!
RF4L
Fabian Brunnstrom signed with the dallas stars
tlats
Well we really sucked one year too and had a great shot at a top 3 pick and where did that get us... A bs lottery and the number one pick handed to Pitt. If we were to finish dead last Bettman would probably say we're going to turn it around this year and give the Stanley Cup winner a top 3 pick and the tankers get the scraps.
MikeLviv
RF4L - Hey, I would take Neil SMith back in a second..Let him get us a cup and then fire his ass...:)..Speaking of Neil Smith, I was surprised at how well he did as a color man during the western games on Versus.
Hospo
And MikeLviv - I usually agree with much of what you say here, but your example of how Pitt has used FA signings and trades to get them to the top (hope not!) does not support a not rebuilding argument. They rebuilt trough getting many high draft picks THEN added the necessary FA etc. to fill in the needs. And by the way - they did not suck for that long. But they truly did suck. Either way - I know it is not an option for us and not needed at this point. I'm just saying we will never have a consistent true Cup contender for years to come when we keep bringing back/in old, over the hill, vets and use the 'we need experience come play-off time' line when we get off to another bad fist half. And have a roster that A: 30% turns over every 2 seasons or B:is based on a core of aging vets that can't get it done anymore, yet get top line ice time. Plus, i don't want to see JJ, Straka, and Shanny wasting a min and a half of each PP playing patty cake and Rozsy always giving up the shot from the slot to pass to his childhood idol. Enough.
NYStranger
Sorry Ken that was kinda nasty...
RF4L
Same mistake over and over again? Is Ken really Neil Smith? Maybe he's Sather? ;-)
RF4L
Ken- man where's the top of the page! ;-) Holy $h!t, I use the ugly word 'rebuild' and I get filleted! I Don't want to do a fricken true rebuild, OK?!! LOL Lets just move to the head of the line a bit faster and stop hanging out with the geezer club. Some of these guys will be playing Ma-Jong in the players lounge before you know it. Ken has put it perfectly when he says we got too good too fast after the lock-out. Which in paradox has slowed franchise development. Just righting those mistakes is all I ask for next year.
NYStranger
KEN: no matter who's right or wrong on this debate of building a team, how do you propose going from here? even if Sather wanted to build from scratch, not many teams can afford drury and gomez. so those two players will be around for a while. so what's the right answer from here on in? in terms of the draft, i read a couple of weeks ago that brian burke of anaheim was willing to part with the draft pick the ducks received from edmonton. i believe it's the 12th pick in the draft. if Sather acquired that pick then maybe he could trade up into the top 5. just a thought.
davidsoc30
Philly went worst -to final 4 in 12 months-you don't need a total rebuild these days-just a few key guys. Pittsburgh won the lottery-smuggled a guy illegally from Russia-made 2 deadline deals to rent free agents-and have a guy named Roberts on forward (not exactly a teenager).Total rebuild- Look at the Isles-a bunch of kids-no stars-and they suck ass. We can't throw out the baby with the bathwater-spiting ourselves so we can have some kid from Hartford score 4 goals in a season just to jettison someone like Jagr.Maybe we do-maybe he wants too much $-who knows. But I know one thing-I don't want a team like the Isles.
puckyou
KEN: Boy, talk about making the same mistake over and over again ;)
RAYNGER
KEN - Jeezus, it's not like you weren't hitting us over the head with your view before that quintfecta! Jsut kidding...We all know where each other stands..
Hospo
NYStranger - I don't think many on here want the likes of Shanny, Malik and Straka back or want to sign "names"..And I think most of us want to see the youngsters integrated into the tea, but only IF and when thay are ready, not before...And smart vet FA/trade aquistions can still really help this team stay in the upper quarte of the league..And if you do that, you will always have a chance if you make the right moves at the deadline..
Hospo
NYStranger......I think you are dead on correct and I can sense the frustration and bitterness in the tone of your post. I feel the same way. Most teams that have gone through complete rebuilds and risen to the top have suffered around five years (if they drafted well and made those five years count). They became good and blossomed a couple of years after that. Ottawa is an exception but to be fair, they did become an excellent young team, just never found the goalie or the coach and never won it all. It's all about odds. You can roll the dice every year or come up with a long term plan and stick to it. I think the NYR were right on track. Their only mistake was dragging JJ and Nylander and Straka along for the ride. They got too good too fast, then "went for it" before it was their time. Furthermore, they never got anywhere near the high end talent they needed since the '98 Malhotra draft to turn things around. So, now we are back to mediocrity. That was my whole point before the deadline. The rebuild job was far from over and we had no business going for it, especially with the likes of PITT and WASH out there. So........what do we do now? Say "oh well," and go on with the same fatally flawed plan and "roll the dice" again and again or do we do something about this. The foundation is in place. We need the key pieces such as sniper, power forward, physical d-man who can skate, and PP QB d-man. How do we get these guys? How do we compete with PITT and WASH the next 1/2 decade plus? PITT is the new model. That is how it is done in 2008 and you know what? That's how it has ALWAYS been done.
Ken
NYStranger......I think you are dead on correct and I can sense the frustration and bitterness in the tone of your post. I feel the same way. Most teams that have gone through complete rebuilds and risen to the top have suffered around five years (if they drafted well and made those five years count). They became good and blossomed a couple of years after that. Ottawa is an exception but to be fair, they did become an excellent young team, just never found the goalie or the coach and never won it all. It's all about odds. You can roll the dice every year or come up with a long term plan and stick to it. I think the NYR were right on track. Their only mistake was dragging JJ and Nylander and Straka along for the ride. They got too good too fast, then "went for it" before it was their time. Furthermore, they never got anywhere near the high end talent they needed since the '98 Malhotra draft to turn things around. So, now we are back to mediocrity. That was my whole point before the deadline. The rebuild job was far from over and we had no business going for it, especially with the likes of PITT and WASH out there. So........what do we do now? Say "oh well," and go on with the same fatally flawed plan and "roll the dice" again and again or do we do something about this. The foundation is in place. We need the key pieces such as sniper, power forward, physical d-man who can skate, and PP QB d-man. How do we get these guys? How do we compete with PITT and WASH the next 1/2 decade plus? PITT is the new model. That is how it is done in 2008 and you know what? That's how it has ALWAYS been done.
Ken
NYStranger......I think you are dead on correct and I can sense the frustration and bitterness in the tone of your post. I feel the same way. Most teams that have gone through complete rebuilds and risen to the top have suffered around five years (if they drafted well and made those five years count). They became good and blossomed a couple of years after that. Ottawa is an exception but to be fair, they did become an excellent young team, just never found the goalie or the coach and never won it all. It's all about odds. You can roll the dice every year or come up with a long term plan and stick to it. I think the NYR were right on track. Their only mistake was dragging JJ and Nylander and Straka along for the ride. They got too good too fast, then "went for it" before it was their time. Furthermore, they never got anywhere near the high end talent they needed since the '98 Malhotra draft to turn things around. So, now we are back to mediocrity. That was my whole point before the deadline. The rebuild job was far from over and we had no business going for it, especially with the likes of PITT and WASH out there. So........what do we do now? Say "oh well," and go on with the same fatally flawed plan and "roll the dice" again and again or do we do something about this. The foundation is in place. We need the key pieces such as sniper, power forward, physical d-man who can skate, and PP QB d-man. How do we get these guys? How do we compete with PITT and WASH the next 1/2 decade plus? PITT is the new model. That is how it is done in 2008 and you know what? That's how it has ALWAYS been done.
Ken
NYStranger......I think you are dead on correct and I can sense the frustration and bitterness in the tone of your post. I feel the same way. Most teams that have gone through complete rebuilds and risen to the top have suffered around five years (if they drafted well and made those five years count). They became good and blossomed a couple of years after that. Ottawa is an exception but to be fair, they did become an excellent young team, just never found the goalie or the coach and never won it all. It's all about odds. You can roll the dice every year or come up with a long term plan and stick to it. I think the NYR were right on track. Their only mistake was dragging JJ and Nylander and Straka along for the ride. They got too good too fast, then "went for it" before it was their time. Furthermore, they never got anywhere near the high end talent they needed since the '98 Malhotra draft to turn things around. So, now we are back to mediocrity. That was my whole point before the deadline. The rebuild job was far from over and we had no business going for it, especially with the likes of PITT and WASH out there. So........what do we do now? Say "oh well," and go on with the same fatally flawed plan and "roll the dice" again and again or do we do something about this. The foundation is in place. We need the key pieces such as sniper, power forward, physical d-man who can skate, and PP QB d-man. How do we get these guys? How do we compete with PITT and WASH the next 1/2 decade plus? PITT is the new model. That is how it is done in 2008 and you know what? That's how it has ALWAYS been done.
Ken
NYStranger......I think you are dead on correct and I can sense the frustration and bitterness in the tone of your post. I feel the same way. Most teams that have gone through complete rebuilds and risen to the top have suffered around five years (if they drafted well and made those five years count). They became good and blossomed a couple of years after that. Ottawa is an exception but to be fair, they did become an excellent young team, just never found the goalie or the coach and never won it all. It's all about odds. You can roll the dice every year or come up with a long term plan and stick to it. I think the NYR were right on track. Their only mistake was dragging JJ and Nylander and Straka along for the ride. They got too good too fast, then "went for it" before it was their time. Furthermore, they never got anywhere near the high end talent they needed since the '98 Malhotra draft to turn things around. So, now we are back to mediocrity. That was my whole point before the deadline. The rebuild job was far from over and we had no business going for it, especially with the likes of PITT and WASH out there. So........what do we do now? Say "oh well," and go on with the same fatally flawed plan and "roll the dice" again and again or do we do something about this. The foundation is in place. We need the key pieces such as sniper, power forward, physical d-man who can skate, and PP QB d-man. How do we get these guys? How do we compete with PITT and WASH the next 1/2 decade plus? PITT is the new model. That is how it is done in 2008 and you know what? That's how it has ALWAYS been done.
Ken
NYStranger - so you are assuming that if we try a total rebuild, after we suck ass for three years we will automaticlly be on the yellow berick road becasue all our porospects will work out...Sounds kinda risky to me..And again, I don';t think we "kinda sucked" this past year, we finsihed in the final 8 of the league..
Hospo
And let me clarify that I am not advocating a 'true rebuild' at this point. It is not necessary, and I have no allusions that the org. would or could go through with one. But I really feel strongly that resigning any of JJ, Straka, Shanny, Roszy(at a high price he will demand) or any of the other UFAs will be a big step backwards. Staying competitive should not equal keeping and retooling around a core that is over 37 years of age! FA signings and trades of course will be necessary and I'm all for it as long as they are young and fit the needs of the team and have the potential to be productive in this league. No longer can the Rangers base their moves on "names" and what a players career stats were. I say again- I like the way this team has progressed this past year, and am surprised at how many guys have made it up through the system. I just want to move things along in that direction a bit faster than many here I guess. Not just by bringing up youth from Hartford but through smart FA signings and smart trades. And continue to get results from good drafting/development. Bringing back our current UFA vets will be a big mistake in the long run - they are way too old by NHL standards.
NYStranger
NYS: How's that true rebuild looking for the Panthers and the Blue jackets?
RAYNGER
Detroit is a good example of a team that retools properly and brings along their youth when they are ready. When was the last time they had a top 5 pick???
MikeLviv
NYStranger there is no evidence that a true rebuild in the sense that you are advocating really works. I will use Ottawa as an example. They kept getting excellent first round picks and had a super team of young studs for years and what did they win??? It could be argued that their lack of true veteran leadership hindered the developement of the young studs. Maybe we should have another lockout and pray for Bettman to give us the 1st pick this time.
MikeLviv
Even if you tanked for years (Pitt is a good example there) there is still pretty strong evidence that you need to stock up with FAs or acquire one or two who are pending FAs at the deadline for a cup run. Look at all the teams left this season. They all made significant FA signings or acquired pending FAs at the deadline. Detroit signed Rafalski, Dallas acquired Richards (though not technically a FA but TB couldn't afford him), the Pens got Hossa and Gill, the Flyers got Briere and Biron. Not saying it can't be done without them but teams recognize their needs and address them in this fashion.
MikeLviv
I don't think a true rebuild is needed, but I do think next year should be a retooling year if thats the right term. If more younger players are ready to make the jump ala Korpikoski and Sauer, then let them and others play and develop. At the same time we should try to stay competitive but stay competitive without signing and overpaying free agents. If we can squeak into the playoffs, great. If not, then at least we have a decent draft position, cap space, etc. At the end of next year evaluate the team needs and perhaps fill in the gaps through free agency next summer.
davidsoc30
Hospo- you and others here would rather not have anything to do with a true rebuild and maybe really stink for 2-3 seasons, BUT you are OK with sort of sucking and never really getting any better for decades? I think many of you are on crack! Another 54 years without a-championship is NOT OK with me. And only getting one good chance every 20 years is NOT OK with me. If that means the team needs to go through a VERY down period, knowing we would have a really good team in the end, so be it. But dark times (like 98-2004) without much (or anything) to show for it is what really burns me up. This organization did not have to wait until the lock-out to start thinking about developing the system and putting more stock and emphasis on youth. The Rangers have always taken too long to do what needs to get done to move forward as an organization. This is why I am against resigning any of our impending UFAs and being very careful with who we bring in. It might cause a short term step backward but in 2 or 3 seasons it will be a BIG step forward (assuming the brain trust has any brain cells which is a BIG assumption). Bringing back some or all of these over-the-hill or plain bad UFAs and adding a missing piece or 2 will only result in banging our heads against the proverbial wall this time next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, and the year after that.....
NYStranger
NYSTranger - The bottom line is FA is a fact of life in the NHL and it';s a great way, with the right signees to bloster your team and make every team of "next year" have a true shot as long as you keep the farm healthy and itnroduce the yoiungsters when they are ready..Like we have been doing and hopefully will continue..But I think it will be in dribs and drabs becasue of the readinesss of our prospects..
Hospo
RAYNGER - We agree 100%....Endzone-- I think we agreee also..and with the UFA age around 28 (?) it can be done...I also don't have a problem with short term contract for older vets that have stuff left in the tank--but only a key one here or there..
Hospo
Hospo - I don't advocate sucking for the sake of sucking just to try and get high draft picks. I just don't like the year in year out FA jumble that gets thrown together that becomes our beloved NY Rangers. It has always been keep this vet or that vet until so and so is ready to step in. Well, until that past 2 seasons we have seen a pitiful few youngsters fill positions. I have been very happy to see how many young guys have been able to take and keep spots this past year. I really hope at least 2 or 3 more grab spots and hold them next season. The big picture question is how well will we do in the next 5 years or so with drafting and trades to put together a true home grown core with enough talent to be consistent Cup contenders. Not (like the current team) Cup pretenders. On the right track? I think so, but other teams that were equally disappointing to there fans seemed to have leap frogged us already. Hopefully that is only in the short term. But how many years do we have to say 'next year'. The sooner our core is 'rebuilt' from within the sooner we get to have real Cup aspirations.
NYStranger
Oh, no!...we're back to debating a **TRUE REBUILD**!!!!!...if by true rebuild people mean dump all the vets, play kids, whether or not they're ready and pray that you suck for years and can draft early then you might as well move to KC or Vegas or Hamilton and wait for an expansion team...that true rebuild stuff only happens with expansion teams who nobody cares about or bankrupt teams like the Pens did...ok, that's it for me on this topic as I've been thru this debate many times before...
RAYNGER
Hospo, am I missing something here? Not even I realistically advocate a "true re-build." With guys like Drury,Gomez, and other second and third year players in the room like Hank, Tyutin,Betts, no need to continue. I would say this club is far from re-building. What I am advocating is not shelling out large coin to the 150 yr.old FA's that will inhibit the growth of this club and further slow the club down on the ice. If the the club wants to bring in "vets" via FA or trades make the 30 or under.
endzone1
KEN: Your point of view seems hinged on the Rangers repeating the same mistakes they've made in the past...that's where we already disagree...the Rangers aren't doing things the same way they did when they thrust the org into the depths of the 7 PO-less years...that era was about signing UFA's who didn't necessarily fit together and at the same time depleting the farm system by trading picks and young players...I think the Rangers have run the org the right way since the pre-lockout purge...for the most part they've held onto picks and young players, developed them, made trades here and there and been more judicious when it comes to free agents...I'll admit that the DRURY contract still bugs me but he is a quality player that brings a lot to the table and I'm not about to proclaim that that signing has doomed the org...in the end, I can deal with mistakes being made (like JESSIMAN) because mistakes will happen, even to the best of franchises, but if the franchise is being run the right way, then the successes should outweigh the mistakes and the org will be in good shape...Sather deserved to be fired early on in his tenure but since then he's turned it around in my book and earned the opportunity to continue...
RAYNGER
By the way, that patient strategy has worked well with guys like Dubi, Cally, Dawes, Stall, Girardi, etc....
Hospo
NYStranger - I don't want anything to do with a "true rebuild" ...Persoanlly, I don't want anything to do with kids that aren't ready, playing in New York just because they try.....Keep them in Hartford until they are ready to contribute consistenlty and then introduce them..if the vets are better and give you a better chance to win, play them until they can be replaced...No, I am not advocating a FA frenzy but I don';t want to throw productive vets by the wayside (guys like Shanny, Malik, maybe even Staka now are another story) or ignore them, just because they are older..
Hospo
Let me clarify that NY fans would not be turned off buy a true rebuild IF it was with putting together a team of young players who are not ready or talented enough yet to win. But if we tanked it buy bringing in over the hill veterans who stunk up the Garden ice Then we would really get pissed. Oh, yeah, that allready happened and we have NOTHING to show for it! MotherF&*^ckers!!
NYStranger
For the most part there is no point in lamenting on past drafting- trading failures. This management should be doing a much better job. Period. But alas they have not and for that this team has not reached whatever supposed potential and expectations. I for one never thought this was a potential Cup winner this year. Maybe if everything aligned perfectly the the universe...and then, probably not. The problem with what management did this past year was they 'sort of went for it'. Kind of threw some spare parts together the added Gomer and Drury and said let's see what happens. The dumb ass media built it up into a Cup contender and we buy into it along with their newspapers! It is complete BS to say the fans will not tolerate a true rebuild. The truth is the f*ucking media can not tolerate it and would burn Dolan and MSG down with constant back page abuse. That kind of heat is what keeps the big NY teams from going that route. MSG might have a few empty seats but there is NO WAY that that building would be empty for years because of turned off fans. Give New Yorkers and NY fans a bit more credit than that!
NYStranger
On TYUTIN, I agree, he hasn't taken big strides and improved alot..DOn't know if he will, but I still think he's a 4th-6th NHL D-man, which we need..I see quite a few posts about how Girardi has way past him..not so sure, there were plewnty of games where Girardi was down right horrible..And I still liker the kid but, like Tyoutin, at most part of an average but young 2nd pair but more likely a 4th-6th D-man..
Hospo
RF4L - I'cve been totally unimpressed with KORP in the past, but he did look good in the PITT game (as he has in a few (but not even half of the Pack games I've seen)..Defientely give him a shot next camp, but I wouldn't hold my breath..
Hospo
I have to disagree with RF4L and Rink. Tyutin needs to be moved, along with Malik, Rosival and Mara. Tyutin was responsible for at least three goals in the Pitt series. One goalmaouth pass from Malkin to Sykora, he neither blocked the pass nor took the body of Sykora. Bang-Bang play left hi with his stick in his hands. The other that comes to mind is the impotent stick check attempt of Laraque that deflected off Tyutin's stick above Henrik's shoulder. My problem with Tyutin is that unlike Girardi and Staal, he does take the body. Sure he lays a nice hipcheck on somebody every 10-12 games, but no forwards fear him and he is not adept enough in speed or skill to make up for that deficiency. We drafted him in 2001. He has spent 4-1/2 years with the Rangers and will be 25 in July. When do you want him to develop? He is being outshone by Girardi and Staal right now and they are rookies. He averages less that 50 penalty minutes a year and has league average offensive statistics. What's his upside? In the 2007-08 season he was a +22 in wins and -17 in losses. That to me is the most telling stat. He is a non-factor. Let's try to get something of value for him while we can. Package him with others for a stud PP QB or sniper.
Fotiu
Korp has speed and clearly some skill and it was indeed, nice to see his strong play against the Penguins. Clearly a capable 4th line player (and more) if that showing is for real.
RF4L
Korpi- I never saw Korpi play until the PITT game and did not have high expectations since his stats in Hartford were unimpressive but the I surely liked what I saw in the PITT game and am hopeful he will continue to improve.. Gotta remember he was one of the youngest players drafted in 04 so patience is needed
schneidw
RF4L: The only reason why I didn't include the 2004 draft in my original assessment was that the pick of DUBI in that draft appears to be a Home Run and the jury is still out on KORPI and BYERS. There is no question that the draft of MONTOYA has to be considered a failure but I am going to give it a year or two more before I call that draft another failed draft (besides the pick of DUBI).
Vic
Vic: I:m not overly impressed with the Rangers 1st and 2nd round drafting in 04, either. They had 2 picks in the first round - Montoya and Korp; one has been traded away for the likes of Shoestring (who right now looks like a 4th liner) and a marginal goalie prospect and the other the jury is still out on. They had 4 2nd round picks and so far Dubinsky is the only one who's impressive. Olver's out of the organization, Bruce Graham isn't likely to be resigned and Dane Byers, like it or not, remains a marginal prospect.
RF4L
tdchi - agree that there will be a signinficant trade in the off-season where we bring in an established player while giving up youth/picks...Depends on the cost, but it will probably be fine with me..
Hospo
KEN: Its not that I don't agree with you because I do when you look at the Rangers draft record. I posted about this last Thursday (5/1). The Rangers first and second round draft record was horrific from 1992 through 2003. Since then the Rangers have done a better job at drafting. All of that is ancient history now. Yes, when the Rangers sucked they didn't get the CROSBY or MALKIN or AO type player at the top of the draft and that has killed the franchise for 10 years. It isn't like they didn't try though. They tried to hit it big in the first round, especially with the big BRENDL and LUNDMARK draft. The Rangers were trying to hit it big with two top 10 players and they failed miserably. Unfortunately for them that draft turned out to be a terrible year overall and the worst part about that is a lot of folks knew it was a weak draft year going in. So KEN, we can sit here pissing and moaning about the bad drafts spanning about 12 years but I don't see what that gets us. The Rangers aren't going to be in a position to draft that high again for a while unless you want to run an AHL franchise at the NHL level for 5 years or so. If that is what you want then you might was well find some other team or sport to root for because that isn't going to happen by design (although it may end up happening through mismanagement like it did with the PENS).
Vic
RF4L - i really don't think that, other then Hutch, any of those D-men are ready for consistent play..WHy I think we will sign Rozy (or a better replacement) PLUS bring in a reliable physical D-man to go with Staal, Toots, Girardi, and Backman in the top 6 with Hutch and MAYBE one of the youngsters fighting for a 6th spot or bench play..Just my guess at this time
Hospo
Thin Slats will get creative w/Jagr & maybe sign a one-year deal-similiar to Shanny's, w/incentives. This will alow him more flexibilty to maybe get Jags to his $8mm number with $3mm being on back end w/modest incentives-w/maybe $1mm bonus for cup win. I know Jags wants 2 yrs., but Slats has to take advantage of the age thing here. Also, goodbye to Shanny (no hard feelings), Straka, Rozy.
puckyou
tdchi: I think Huselius will get offers of $5,000,000 or more, given the fact he appears to be the only offensive winger available. That's kinda high, IMO. That said, he'd probably enjoy playing for Renney who's demeanor and demands for accountability doesn't match that of Mike Keenan!
RF4L
I'm shocked nobody has made a push for KROG or ISBISTER...Both free agents, might I add...I've long maintained this team ain't going to get anywhere investing in the UFA market this year.And after scanning through the list again, I haven't changed my opinion. First, the most alluring pot of players is in PITTSBURGH right now and I have no doubt the team will resign the only two players that could help this squad(MALONE & ORPIK). HOSSA will leave. There's no way they're going to be able to resign him unless he takes lesser money to be with Crosby's crew. More than likely, he's going to want GOMEZ money, and that's simply too much. Hossa on Broadway was ill-received the first time it happened; the second would be worse. Only if JAGR leaves does Hossa become an option. MALONE: Forget about it. He's the Ryan Smyth of Pittsburgh, a hometown boy who will only be moved when the Pens are out of money. Not the case next year. ORPIK: you never know. I see him in the $2.7-$3.2 million per; if Pitt extends him a longterm deal(which they will), he'll stay...The rest: STREIT is interesting, but he only covers half of what this team needs on the blueline(PP specialist). What they REALLY need, especially if MARA and MALIK don't come back, is SIZE and a punisher with it. The only guy on the market I see filling this need is BRANISLAV MEZEI. If there's one FA I'll advocate for it's this guy. Young, stay at home, heavy hitter and he's got size...REDDEN - too much money. COMMODORE - I'd give a sniff. SAUER - I really like him, but he's too injury-prone; I also have visions of him becoming Malik Jr.. But hey, if he comes cheap. JASON SMITH - To quote Nancy Reagan, JUST SAY NO...Up front, I'd give a sniff to HUSELIUS on the wing, but he does nothing for size...All in all, I say the team would be better off filling in holes with draft-day trades and by utilizing Hartford. RENNEY says five guys stand to make the team next year; I take that as there will be no less than three on the squad, with the chance of five. Where do they fit, that's the question. I think both Baranka and Sanguinetti will get a shot at the blue line...I smell a pretty substantial trade on draft day...
tdchi
Hospo: I hope you're wrong about Baranka and Potter. I think, given the 4 pending UFA defensemen, the organization needs at least one of them to graduate. Baranka seems to have the best shot, but like you say, he's been hurt continually and you know that's hurt his progress. Maybe we'll get lucky and Sanguinetti will make the team out of training camp, although I truly believe that's a longshot - having 2 consecutive years of rookie pros making the backline is simply too much to ask, isn't it?
RF4L
RF4L - I don't think any of our Pack players are good enough or consistent enough to count on for the NHL..They showed that in the AHL POs......But I do agree that guys like Byers, Korpikoski,Jessima, Bourett (if he gets his act in gear) have shots at the 4th line...I feel less enthused about the constantly hurt and underachieving Baranka, Potter..But Hutch might be a better option..
Hospo
Ken: I agree with your slant re need successful first round drafting to ice a winning team and the higher those picks, the more powerful the team. However, don't forget that the Wings, currently favoured to win the cup by many 'experts', haven't had a high draft pick in years. Mind you, they haven't won the Cup since their main man, Stevie Y retired. Stevie, by the way, was selected 4th overall in the 83 draft, during a period of complete futility by the Wings.
RF4L
endzone1 - Hey, to each their own...The season was fun to me..Yes, I became disappointed at the end becasue of their play and the reffing, but I wasn't expecting a cup...Looking forward to a longer run next season, and getting the players to do so...And not gonna argue the pros and cons of Ranney, but I just don't see him going anywhere yet....Althoiugh I do agree, I think his best value would be in heading player development..
Hospo
In terms of Pack players being promoted next fall, I see Korp replacing Betts as the 4th line center (making Betts tradeable in the process), Baranka and possibly Potter making the defense and one of Jessiman/Byers replacing Hollweg, who almost everyone seems to want traded. From a trade fodder perspective that leaves Prucha, Betts and Hollweg as bait, plus perhaps one of Tyutin/Girardi (my choice would be to keep the latter because he hits). I add in the last pair mainly because if you want to acquire something of significance (ie Zherdev from the BJs) you gotta give up something of significance. My problem with trading one of Tyutin/Girardi is that it potentially leaves the backline very weak. The only signed d-men are Staal and those 2, meaning you have 2 returnees and must go out and sign at least 2 UFA d-men. I have no problem with that except that desperation can result in overpaying.
RF4L
Thanks for the support endzone....I was beginning to feel like Tom Hanks in "Castaway." Raynger and Hospo....Just remember the old adage about doing things the same way and expecting different results. The thing I find hardest to understand about most Ranger fans is how they are always willing to put up with things as they are for "one more year." The glory is always "just around the corner." But throughout the long history of the NHL, certain things are absolute musts in order to drink from the cup with probably the most obvious being drafting franchise players with elite talent, the kind that give a team its identity. Since we never do that......(and......we never win).......hmmmm....can we try it? The answer from Ranger management and diehard fans alike is always a resounding NO. We would never put up with that....not here....not in New York like we are somehow above such a thing. Look at the teams that have won cups...go back as far as you like (hockeydb.com - draft by team). Find me the teams that have been consistently successful and count the successful first round draft choices. It's not the only necessary ingredient, but it is one history shows you cannot consistently win without. Look at the recent posts here looking to get rid of everybody I wanted gone before the deadline. They also want more washed up vets like Jason Smith and want to see which teams' rosters they can raid this summer. FA is a tool, no doubt. Best for tweaking and filling minor holes. Major pieces of the championship puzzle come through the draft. But.....that takes sacrifice and patience fans don't have.
Ken
While I'm at it I think I'll make one other prediction this morning. I predict that if JJ goes elsewhere the Rangers will be put in a position to have to do one of two things. Either they suck it up, promote a bunch of the kids and resign themselves to missing the playoffs (not likely) or they will be forced to go out and deal for a legit first line scoring winger. That deal would involve several of the coveted youth in the system. The other option, of course, would be to pursue HOSSA but IMHO his contract would kill the team's chances of assembling enough depth to build any kind of legit Cup contender unless they get extremely lucky with a bunch of the kids in the system.
Vic
EZ1: Expecting the Rangers (or any team for that matter) to put out a team of 20 somethings is unrealistic. I'd rather see a team with the right balance between young and old players. You need some grizzled vets to lead the young players. You just have to have the right guys in the right roles. Right now the Rangers don't have that.
Vic
SCHNEIDW: LOL! I'll have to send in my resume to DOLAN. I'm not sure about REDDEN. He is going to want a ton of money and I just don't know if he is the right guy to invest that much money in. COMMODORE interests me at the right price. I haven't seen enough of the elder SAUER to have a good opinion of him. I guess another guy that could be brought in to fill out one of the top six spots is ROLSTON. We shall see.....
Vic
Vic,schneid: I for one didn't consider my expectations unrealistic. I have been down on this entire Staff, including Slats, since camp. I didn't like Renney last season and advocated trading JJ at last year's deadline! My take on sports and athletes overall has always been; IT'S A YOUNG MAN'S WORLD! Sure there is something to be said for vet leadership, maturity, and wisdom, but give me a club with solid twenty somethings across the board and I'll go to war every night with them. Horse-shit on anybody in there mid to late 30's on this roster anymore! It's just not gonna get it done.
endzone1
VIC- right on!! We should fire SATHER Now and put you in his place..great post... I think the NYR strategy needs to focus on (1) youth (2) speed (3) salary cap savings. With that stated, on the left wing needs.. I propose signing either R Malone (age 27) from Pitt OR N Hagman (age 27) from Dallas... and then giving Korpi a shot at the 2nd line... Might be overly hopeful that either of these guys can produce on the 1st line but other options are limited outside of a trade.... With respect to defense... I propose letting all UFAs leave unless Roszical is willing to sign for 2nd pairing $$$.. then I target 2nd tier UFAs such as Commodore (27yo), Sauer (26yo), Zyuzin (29yo), Mezei (26yo), Streit (29yo), and Finger (27yo) and of course, put out feelers for Redden (30yo) and Cambell (28yo).... We really do no a steady influence to pair with Staal so we don't overload the kid and ruin his development... I always thought Kloucek was going to be the guy until he got hurt!
schneidw
NYStranger -- As long as this brain (less) trust is in charge...my guess, NEVER!
RF73
Hospo, I don't see a whole lot of folks talking abouy a fun ride here the last couple of days. Always a brides-maid or however that shit goes. Sure, throw Slats into the mix, I said that days ago. Your list of players to go is solid and I have no prob with any of them but my bottom line still is the "coach!" He can't get this club over the hump and if,(please God no) these relics (JJ,Shanny, Straka) all return even for just 1 more season, we are truly FU@#ED!
endzone1
NYStranger- Good Idea... but as I am lamenting the fact that Philadelphia is still playing and NYRs are in Palm Springs or somewhere golfing.. I am bitter and actually thinking 2094!
schneidw
schneidw - 2040 before we see another Cup? I hope not but just for fun we should all post our guess what year it will be! Is there an over under? LOL
NYStranger
YORK18- I think you are right about STRAKA.. He is an high energy hustling player who simply does not produce 1st line results anymore... I was very frustrated watching him dipsy doodle and continue to do the same thing... drop passes after crossing the blue line that lead to turnovers and odd-man rushes... I like Straka but not at $3.5M per year
schneidw
I think these conversations regarding who we want "gone" are interesting because they show that a lot of us didn't think the Rangers were good enough to win it all this year. I think a lot of the folks that are really bitter after the Rangers got bumped in the second round had expectations that were out of whack. If the Rangers were so good we wouldn't want to see 6 to 10 of them on the next bus out of town. I have my own list of course but it isn't a list of guys that I can't stand. It is more a list of guys that play key spots in the roster where the Rangers are going to need to get better if they are going to be a real Cup contender. I think the Rangers need upgrades in their top six forwards. Specifically they need to get better with respect to STRAKA and SHANNY. I could take having STRAKA back but it would have to be in a reduced role (3rd or 4th line) and for much less money. If having STRAKA around pushes KORPI off the roster then I don't want him back. The Rangers need to see what they have in KORPI and I am willing to invest a 3rd or 4th line spot next year to find out. As much as I am tempted to have SHANNY back in a 4th line role where he plays mostly on the PP and PK I think I'd rather see the Rangers just move on......On D I think the Rangers need to get better in a number of spots. Upgrading MALIK and MARA are a must. Hell, the two of them make a combinded 6+ million. I have to believe we can find one guy for that money that is better then both of them. As for ROSI, he would be fantastic as a second pair D on the Rangers. The problem is that he is most likely going to demand 1st pair money and I don't think he is worth it. So I have 5 guys who have to either go or have someone else upgrade the role they played last season (STRAKA, SHANNY, MALIK, MARA and ROSI). BACKMAN is making too much money to be a black hole of suckdom. I'd rather cut my loses on him and use that salary slot elsewhere. So, for first line next year I hypothetically have XXXX-DUBI-JJ, XXXX-GOMEZ-DAWES, AVERY-DRURY-CALLY for the top three lines assuming the Rangers resign JJ and AVERY. Those top two wing spots need to be filled by big, physical wingers that can skate and play. I can see going after MALONE for one of those spots but I don't have a good candidate for the other. If the Rangers can somehow pry CHERRY out of Russia that could resolve the other spot. If KORPI blossoms is it possible that he could take that other spot on GOMEZ's wing? If not move AVERY back up with GOMEZ and put KORPI with DRURY. On D that would give me XXXX with STAAL, TYUTIN with GIRARDI and then XXXX with XXXX. I'd like to fill that first opening with a guy like ORPIK. That last pairing is completely up in the air in my mind and I think it will get filled by a combo of a youngster from the system and a dumpster dive (or STRUDS). As for the 4th line I think the Rangers can do anything they want but I'd rather see BETTS move on. If the Rangers can get better at Center on that line I think you would be surprised at the positive change in goal production for that line. I'd also like to see guys like JESSIMAN, PARENTEAU, BYERS and MOORE compete for spots on the 4th line next year.
Vic
RF2000- I pray you are so wrong on JJ and Staka - Hospo - that's a start! Clean the mother-effin house Sather or go take a long walk in the woods back in Banf.
NYStranger
RF4L- Jason Smith is a shadow of his former self... Pylon!
schneidw
NYRs post 2008: My prediction is SATHER resigns Jagr/Straka to 2 year contracts; Roszcival and Avery to 4 year contract and makes another run at the Stanley Cup in 2009. I do not agree with this approach but given the team is making the playoffs, as President he needs to generate revenue during the rebuild... $$$$$ always comes into play when you are based in new york
schneidw
Ken/Raynger- Please excuse me for jumping in on your interesting NYR exchange.. May I state that you are both right and then try to direct the question to the real point?! In summary, Ken nailed it by stating that the main reason the NYRs are sort of stuck in neutral is the fact that the organization has continued to bomb on 1st round draft picks and Ray rebuts that lately Post 2004 the 1st round picks are starting to materialize and maybe the NYR organization is turning the corner... With that stated, what is the right move to make wrt the Post-2008 NYRs? Start with a clean slate and let all the UFAs (except for Avery) walk? Resign the key UFAs to 1 or 2 year contracts and try again with the current disfunctional lineup? Rebuild via UFAs and not ready prospects? Here is my take and fire away....The current NYRs were built for the 2008 Stanley Cup and failed despite being reasonably healthy. Why did they fail? The big guns (except Jagr) did not produce goals and choked on the power play. Therefore, I claim the current lineup is flawed and its time to rebuild and stay the course with youth and speed. Hopefully Ray is correct and the next generation produces at a high level otherwise it might be 2040 before we see another cup.
schneidw
DREW: Jason Smith is an okay signing because of his leadership and physical play. However, he's slipping in effectiveness now - against Montreal, Philly always scrambled to get him off the ice when the Kovalev line came out. He's, at best, a 2nd pairing and perhaps more suited for the 3rd pair. Provided he takes a contract that fits that role, I see the upside.
RF4L
Regarding defenseman for next year, I was at NHL Numbers. How would you guys feel about Jason Smith for 2 years? He is 34 years old so it isn't a long term solution. Perhaps he can bring the "Veteran leadership" void that a departed Shanahan leaves??? If Sags isn't ready next year. Jason Smith, Staal, Tyutin, Girardi, Backman, Mara?? or another FA?.....And I am with York18, I love what Martin Straka brought. I thought he hustled and was very responsible defensively but those comments disturb me as well. I think we need to bring Avery back. A lot of non-Ranger fans say we overrate him but the numbers do not lie. His effectiveness may wear down in a few years but for now, we need Sean Avery.
DREW
BOB --Who I want gone--Roszy, Malik, Strudwick, Mara, Shanny, Straka, Prucha, SJostrom, Hollweg, Orr..Don't think we would miss a singe one of them except for Roszy, who i think will be replaced..
Hospo
I hope that Rozsival, Mara, Straka, Shanahan and Hollweg are gone. We need upgrades at their positions.
Bob
I don't know about any of you, but I for one don't want Straka back after he said signing here would depend on if Jagr came back. I don't care if Jagr comes back or not Straka can go screw himself. He doesn't want to be here if his butt buddy isn't here than I don't want him here at all. This guy couldn't leave fast enough as far as I'm concerned. Take the money you were going to spend on him and give it to Avery a guy who can score and more and wants to be here. Straka can go fuck off.
York18
Ok, so here are my predictions for the off season. First off, Jagr will come back. However, it will sign some strange deal where it's only for 2 years, if he again hit's some numbers after those two years (combined) he gets a third year, and if he reaches 100 points and wins the stanley cup in the third year, he gets a 4th year. Jagr wants to stay here, but family problems in Czech aren't helping. However, a big incentive is to play with his fellow countrymen this next season at the opening game in the Czech Republic. Martin Straka will end up signing a 2 year deal with us to guarantee he stays on Jagr's team. Avery won't get the money he is asking for, but it will be close, like 3.25 million, and he'll accept it because he wants to be here.... of course, if the Rangers have the money to do so, I'd say give him the 4 mill. Rangers are going to do their best to get Cherpanov here, as they want him to play with Jagr. He may start out in minors and if he is not NHL ready next season, we will definitely see Korp up with us. Paul Mara and Marek Malik will be taking a walk. Rangers just won't want to pay Mara 3 million and Malik is already in the dog house anyway, despite his inspired play late in the season. We will make a signing though like Brian Campbell, to make up for the loss, since he is friend's with Drury. Rozi will also stay, and probably sign up for 3 years with a 4th year option (similar to Jagr's). Struds will be re-signed as well for another year, I think. Rangers will re-sign Valliquette and for a little bit more money than he was making, as he is a valuable backup goalie. Shanny is going to take a walk, probably to play for his old Detroit team again, and return after 1 more year in the NHL. Petr Prucha will be dealt draft day, probably for a pick... we may see a combo of Prucha and a youngster in the minors for a pick, maybe a first round one, but nothing spectacular. More of a salary dump for us if anything. The Christian Backman expirement will probably continue until next trading deadline, when the Rangers finally give up on him. So yeah, losing Prucha, Shanny, Malik and Mara. Gaining Campbell, Cherpanov and/or Korp (depends on what happens,but could open up another spot for one of our young prospects). Then losing Backman later on. Keep in mind, these are my predictions, and they seem logical to be honest... it's just a matter of making the necessary salary dumps and staying under the cap, etc.
rangerfan2000
Wow, I go away for a day and you guys break out the razor blades again...:-)~
Vic
Let's see, Final 8 in the League and it was buffonery and total worthless...OK...Yeah, I think we should have made it to the Final 4 but it was still a fun ride, even if it sucked atthe end (becasue Staher didn;t improve us enough, that's where there was some buffonery)..DOn't resign Straka and Shanny, Deal some kids and get stronger for a run next year...
Hospo
Evening All, man I'm starting to really feel these "dark-side" posts. Ken, I've been searching for the words to how I've been feeling since Sunday and I think you nailed it! My view is plain and simple, change is needed NOW! We've had enough time to see the buffoonery of this "coaching" staff at work, enough with the over-the-hill crew, it's time to move in another direction with a new vision! I agree 100% with Ken, this result was unacceptable.
endzone1
Wow, some heavy shit on the wall/...FA is here to stay...You go for it every year while trying to keep a healthy farm,...To me, anything else is unacceptable.....The problem this past trading deadline is that Satehr didn't go for it and didn;t improve us....
Hospo
NCRanger....Huntington as on Long Island? I'm right here off of Rt110.
MelvilleFred
KEN stop peeing in these nice peoples' corn flakes. Sather has everyone duped, he'll be rebuilding a work in progress until buttman goes around the league awarding The Cup to his teams. The refs have been issued new uniforms for the semi's & the finals to try out to decide whether to wear them next season & beyond...they weren't ready for the 1st 2 rounds but the refs saw them before the playoffs started... http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/PrairieDog/NewRefereeJersey.jpg
stevielegs
RF4L - I think Hugh would have pummeled me if i said that, but I was definitely thinking it. He mentioned that Dubinsky's dad rented out some rooms at the Hard Rock last year for them and some other HFD players to party it up. Trade - Im from Charlotte, NC. Hugh and I talked a little about the city since he spent some time here. Im originally from Huntington, but have been down here forabout 18 years already. Wow, time flies.
NCRanger
RAYNGER - An OV Split? Yeesh. That would suck. Tank three years in a row and your consolation is a lousy 6 oz. beer. The least they could give you is an OE...40 oz. that is ;)
tdchi
KEN: The Caps have the best scorer in hockey right now but the rest of the roster is not the envy of the rest of the NHL...heck' they don't even have a goalie signed for next season...but goaltending's no big deal, I guess...ask Bobby Clarke...or Sens fans...or TB fans....listen, if you're going to complain that the Rangers won't tank 3 seasons in a row to stockpile high picks, so be it...I have no desire to go dowwn that road...even if there's an OV at the end of the rainbow.
RAYNGER
RAYNGER....that's fine...to each his own. I will choose to be miserable and not enjoy this very much. As far as W's and L's and applying that to the Caps? C'mon. There is not a person alive who would trade any EC team's roster (other than PITT) right now for that of the Caps. Say that again in two years. As far as turning the corner? From oblivion back to mediocrity? Yes. Agreed. Still doing it with other team's guys and leaning on guys hard who are done. We do this because we don't draft high enough or well enough. Whining? Maybe I am. If you are content and happy and I am raining on your parade, I apologize. I cannot get excited by winning five games in the PO's this year. Just can't. The canadiens would have reason to be OK with losing in the 2nd rd. even to Philly. They have been the most successful team in the game, they have not been as bad as us for as long as us, and they have reason to believe they will get it right. They traded their veteran goalie away from a position of strength. That was a ballsy move which will pay big dividends most likely. I am sure they are not feeling all warm and fuzzy about the short term improvement in their recent regular season record and that they are back in the POs.
Ken
RF4L....Their first round drafting has been atrocious. No other way to put it. That is the number one reason they never get over the hump. You are right about their drafting from the 2nd round on. It's been fine, even good...but that don't win cups. What happened to that juggernaut Anaheim BTW...lol.....They were the flagship for the "new NHL" where drafting hall of famers was no longer the blueprint. Watch out but just as the NYR are catching up to the late 90's trap happy game, the league is shifting offensive again. tdchi....pessimism reflect performance of team (Japanese accent).....I have been a NYR fan longer than I care to admit. Being pessimistic is my defense mechanism. It is the only way I stay sane and still can follow this organization like my life depended on it or something. Want some more pessimism? Some more things that "could have gone either way? If the Oilers don't have a firesale of the greatest drafted dynasty in NHL history and the NYR aren't the sole eligible buyers we don't win squat in what is now 68 years of mediocre hockey. The fact that "they are never bad enough" to get top picks is a falsity. They have been plenty bad enough anyway and now we watch the stars grow up on other team's rosters while we argue whether PP or Dawes is the better winger. We still watch the Zubovs of the world succeed at a position we have never filled. The NYR don't need UFAs, a tough defenseman, etc., etc.....They need a leader in the front office with vision. Someone with a plan to do more than compete and try to make the POs every year. Someone with the balls to make difficult, unpopular decisions and who knows when to fish or cut bait. That person needs to be found and hired along with the absolute best talent and draft gurus on the planet (no salary cap on them). The Rangers are the most important market in the league and have the most loyal fan base. We deserve better than 2 PO 1st round wins after seven years of Nedved and Lindros and Holik and Bure and all that crap. Any idiot can sign the biggest names of the past every year. We deserve much better. Do what it takes to draft in the top 2-3 for a couple of years....whatever it takes. Try it for once. As long as you are not Milbury it should give you far better odds of winning than throwing together retreads and history has proven that over and over and over.
Ken
KEN: Ok, now you're confusing me...if all that matters is the bottom line of wins and losses, then why are you giving WASH the exalted stature of a team everyone must go thru to win the East...they didn't make it past the first round...using your logic, it would be more accurate to say the East goes thru PHILLY and PITT....if you want to bemoan the fact that the Rangers don't have CROSBY, MALKIN and OV, that's fair, I guess, but what's the use?...you're whining about something that wasn't under the Rangers' control...the Rangers weren't picking first overall or top 5 in those drafts when they missed the PO's...and as lousy as the Rangers have been in drafting in the first round, I think they could have managed to take CROSBY first overall in 2005 or OV first overall in 2004...the fact was the Rangers weren't bad enough to pick at the top of the draft, which is where you normally get those true studs...IMHO the Rangers turned the corner in 2003 when the stopped trading away high draft picks...yes, they blew it by drafting JESSIMAN and to a lesser extent, MONTY with their first picks in 03 and 04 but I think they were going about their business the right way and every draft starting with 03 has resulted in players who have helped the Rangers - and not just as bit players - and there's still others who will probably help the big club in an important way...and even those that didn't make the team like MAREK and CLICHE were turned into SEAN AVERY...DRAFT SUCCESS: PITT drafted CROSBY and MALKIN where they did, which were no brainers...they drafted FLEURY 1st overall (which is where I had him for that draft, BTW)...but that doesn't make them a better drafting org than the Rangers...in 06 they drafted STAAL 2nd overall and although he'll be a good player, he's not as good as TOEWS, BACKSTROM and MUELLER, and will probably not be as good as OKPOSO...heck, I give SANGUINETTI a shot of being more of an impact player than STAAL, within the next few years...teams pick players in lower rounds for different reasons...THE KING was picked late because he wouldn't be coming to NA anytime soon and there was no clock ticking on signing him to a contract...it's not a bad thing that the Rangers drafted a productive player after the 1st or 2nd round, it proves they actually did their homework right and correctly figured where that player stood in the eyes of others...so anyway, back to what I think your point was...yup, the Rangers haven't drafted many studs in the 1st round...yup, it sucks...but the org seems to have turned the corner and the results are on the ice...the team has made the PO's 3 years in a row which is pretty exclusive company in the East...complaining about drafting top end players high in the draft is a useless exercise...year after year people went on about how great OTT was drafting and how they were building a winner the right way...well, 11 years after drafting MARION HOSSA and HAVLAT and SPEZZA, etc...they're on a downward spiral with little to show for their drafting acumen...we've come out of the darkness as Ranger fans...enjoy it...
RAYNGER
RF4L - Like I said, Central Scouting has JARED STAAL at 32nd. I don't know if that's 'cause of the draft quality or if he's fallen out of favor. But here's three compelling reasons to go for him: 1. he's going to be a BIG winger and will take a year or two to develop, which is fine. The Rangers don't need immediate help on forward and can let a guy work through the system. They do need big wingers in the system. When Hugh Jessiman, Dane Byers and Brodie Dupont are your only wings 6'2 or taller, you need some help...2. The brother connection. The NHL was promoting Marc-Jordan-Eric all season long. Every game between the brothers, the 'sibling rivalry' was touted. Two Staals, one team, marketing genius. The bean counters would have a field day...and 3. Bloodlines. It's as simple as that. With three out of four brothers making the NHL, what are the chances the fourth misses? Not much, in my opinion. The Staals seem to have a very good work ethic, and it's shown in their rapid ascension in the league. In fact, I'd go as far to say trade up in the draft if word gets out that someone else is going to grab this kid...NYSTRANGER/KEN - I disagree with one exception and that's SHANAHAN...I think Shanny is approaching a quasi-Messier status in that his game is on a downtrend and he's still playing first or second line minutes. The rest, well, I'd personally like to see them come back for one more shot. The thing is, every year this team's had some massive change. Last year it was Nylander and Cullen leaving, the year before, it was Cullen, Hall and Ward coming. This is the first season I could see the team re-investing in its own FAs and returning to the ice with a better squad. Keep in mind how much Dubinsky, Callahan and Dawes grew last season. Dubi was on the cusp of just making the NHL, Dawes was cut and Callahan was a non-entity for the first half of the season. Now look at what they did in the POs...KEN - you're way too pessimistic dude. I'm not going to throw these guys a friggin' tickertape parade, but I've got no problem with the showing they put in against PIT. It was a spirited series that could have very easily gone the other direction in any one of the games. Game 1, it was Crosby's dive, Game 2, it was Straka's goal getting waved off. Game 3, it was Lundqvist pretending he was Mike Dunham and in Game 5, it was the none-call